and it's time for a few small repairs, she said

[intertribal]

The first commentary on the whole Bankrupt Nihilism brouhaha that I really agree with (and surprisingly, it comes from Black Gate): The Decline and Fall of Bankrupt Nihilism.  One points Matthew Surridge brings up that I consider pretty important concerns the supposedly "heroic and inspiring" morality of old-fashioned fantasy, and particularly, states that there's a big difference between Tolkien's and Howard's morality: "[Howard's heroes] were concerned with doing right, but doing right by a moral code based around virtues like honour and strength. I think that’s a far cry from Tolkien’s Christian sense of morality." 

The "virtues like honor and strength" part really got to me, because it reminds me of the kind of "morality" that infuses militaristic societies (you can see this in U.S. armed forces ads too).  Hilariously, I recently used the exact phrase "honor and strength" in a short-story-in-progress as the straight-faced slogan of a genocidal army (this is a Suharto-inspired story, but it's obviously got wider implications). 

Anyway, Surridge's main point is that this old-fashioned fantasy was not, as a rule, any more morally-upright than what's being written today.  He also says that although "a certain stylistic approach has become broadly more common in fantasy, specifically because it’s an approach that’s perceived as more realistic" (this approach being dark-and-gritty), it's not "about the morality of the writers... so much as a greater focus on world-building, plot detail, and the amount of cruelty that one can expect to find in the world."  Which I think is also pretty fair.

This whole ridiculous bankrupt nihilism conversation has made me realize that I think I'm a "moralist" writer, at least if that means my writing is concerned with discussing right behavior.  I never really thought of it that way, but after reading this essay and thinking about the novel... yeah, it's all about right behavior (there are other things, too, but that's the backbone).  I usually think of my writing as being "political," but I think that's just my poli sci background speaking.  I've written things that weren't so driven by morality, and they never feel as whole or sincere or "worth it" after I get a bit of distance from them (in contrast to say, my ChiZine stories).  The best writing compliment I've ever gotten is six years old, and came from one of my high school English teachers - that I "wield the pen like a sword."  And I really need to remember that that sort of writing is my real mission.

Comments

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

I love it when I recognize song lyrics quoted in subject lines or status updates.

I'll go look at the article (why were you surprised that it was at Black Gate? Is it because Black Gate publishes epic-oriented stuff?), but I agree that a lot of what people are actually talking about is stylistic approach rather than content. (Or at least, I should say that it sounds as if it is, since in fact I've read none of the works in question.)

Also, golden age-ism of any sort, whether it's about a wonderful past when people were (so the yearner claims) better in some way than they are now, or whether it's an era when art/music/literature was less "degenerate" in some way, usually is deliberately and obstinately blind to the very flaws and wrongs of the period or era that's being extolled--and often it's those very flaws that the later society (or art/theater/literature/music) are exposing.

Not always, but often.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

"Sunny Came Home" is one of my all-time favorite songs.

I was surprised it was Black Gate because they're all about old-fashioned, very macho fantasy, it seems to me, so there are certain demographics I think Black Gate tries not to cross. The people they have to write for them usually present moderate, inoffensive arguments, but some of their commenters are something else entirely.

I think people are mixing up style and content, yeah - but I haven't read the works in question either, so it's hard to judge. I think part of this article's point was that style and content was also getting mixed up when talking about old-fashioned fantasy - that just because it was published in the early 1900s and didn't talk about "gross things" and had a mythopoetic flair, doesn't mean it was morally righteous or w/e - and if Leo Grin really finds Robert E. Howard's morals inspirational, then that goes to show you that traits like "heroic and inspiring" are subjective.

I liked your SH story, btw! I really liked the way you ended it - I'm glad you gave it that twist.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

I definitely think "heroic and inspiring" are so subjective as to be almost meaningless, out of context.

Glad you liked the story. It kind of horrified me to write? I guess I get easily horrified...

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Yep.

Well, it's definitely on the darker side, for you, so I can see that it would. What inspired it?

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

My younger son getting stuck in a yew tree, actually, and seeing how the branches really did look like bare muscle without skin on it, all red and raw. And then just thinking about how casually vicious myths generally are.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

The part about the branches looking like arms without skin was extremely striking.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

I'm not really turning up an image online that shows both the muscle-y-ness and the redness, but this gives a bit of the sense:

http://www.thetraveleditor.com/users/745/pictures/6330/photo-s1-3.jpg

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

See, this is the kind of image that you are really great at coming up with. It's a talent.

[barry-king.livejournal.com]

Ah, now I see it. I remember two old yews side-by-side in the Welsh damp. Very green, very shaggy, with an old world mustiness about them, not so flayed, not so raw, not so young.

But the line I will remember is the last. We do live in a time of miracles. Oh, yes.

But all I have to add to the actual discussion is that vir is the latin root for man and virtue. Be a man is to be good for a roman, and in light of coming from the disappointment of settling for The Eagle because The King's Speech was cancelled, is that there are many moralities out there, and it is interesting to bring them into conflict with each other.

Teh nihilism has one view of virtue, which it rejects. And that is where it grows dull. Feeling the need to poke it with a stick is not the same as being interested in it.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

Yeah--bringing different notions of virtue into conflict is *very* interesting.

Re: yew limbs, you should have seen the tree that held onto my son. It was orangy red in color...

a time of miracles

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

Oh--and I meant to say: yeah, that ending line is pretty much what I think about our present world.

Re: a time of miracles

[barry-king.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

Hey, and congrats on "Absolute Zero," which I just saw an announcement about over on pgtremblay's blog.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm pretty excited about it.

[fengi.livejournal.com]

First, I must say I love the name Leo Grim - it makes me think of Dickens and Hal Hartley. With handle like that, he's almost obligated to write myopic articles complaining about the decline of something.

Second, I really hope Mr. Grim doesn't read those plays by that upstart Euripides, who displays a hopelessly modern disrespect for heroic tropes and is often a downer.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Sadly, it's Leo Grin. Which, I don't know, sounds like a cartoon-villain name.

I'm not sure Mr. Grin has read much in the way of myths at all. I mean, he seems to think Conan is myth, for Chrissake. I think by "myth" he means "stuff I grew up on."

[yamamanama.livejournal.com]

At least it isn't as dumb as Vox Day.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

True.