I was ok with Animal Farm, but...

[intertribal]

Yann Martel:  I needed to find two animals that might represent the Jews. So trading on positive stereotypes, donkeys are held to be stubborn, they’ve endured, in a sense. Jews are historically have been stubborn in a sense, they’ve held onto their culture, to their religion, despite centuries of discrimination. At the same time, we hold monkeys to be clever, to be nimble. Well, historically, Jews have proven themselves to be exceptionally nimble and clever, they’ve adapted to all different kinds of circumstances, all kinds of different countries, cultures, and also historically, they’ve contributed enormously, disproportionately to the arts and sciences.  So trading on those positive stereotypes, I chose, well, here, how can I represent Jews? Well, here, I’ll represent them as this combination, these two animals, monkeys and donkeys. It could also be that the donkey is sort of a representation of the body and monkey the representation of the mind of Jews.

David Sexton:  What is one to say? Perhaps, to be kind, that Martel, not Jewish himself incidentally, is just not very bright.

Yann Martel:  If he says that of me, I wonder what he feels about Art Spiegelman in Maus. In Maus the Jews are characterised as mice. But were the Jews mouse-like in the Warsaw ghetto uprising? I wonder how he feels about that characterisation.

Hey hey hey hey,or: we could not use different animal species to symbolize different groups of people, especially when you're using stereotypical animal traits to match up with stereotypical human group traits.  We could not reduce huge groups of God's creatures to one or two sweeping adjectives.

Just a thought!

Comments

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing is, what I was mostly reacting to here is Martel, and the idea that he just needs to choose the right animal for the right reasons to represent Jewish people - I probably shouldn't have gone on with him dragging Maus into it, and you are right that I should read it before assuming what it's doing (but should I read Martel before assuming what he is doing? or just rely on his interviews?).

But for me, the real issue I have with the way Maus is cast is I hate that people think cats are evil, and I hate that they've been typecast as evil. And I'm not sure how to like... point to that stereotype and overcome it? So... I guess it raises my ire in that sense, but I'm not sure what the real issue therein is, other than the way our culture has coded common domestic animals. But you're right that it is a kneejerk reaction on my part. I think that my sensitivity to the cat thing has expanded over the years to include other anthropomorphizing - whereas I'm sure that Sexton (and most people) are coming at it from the angle of not wanting human ethnic groups to be represented by animals according to traits. And I honestly think that's a different issue.

You mean what we should do is look at our own stereotypes before condemning other people's stereotypes? Because see, I don't have a stereotype in this regard. Other than I don't think cats are evil. I don't really... stereotype animals in general. And I guess it saddens/angers me when people do. I've gotten to the point where I just avoid things that do it, which is probably bad.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

I, uh, don't think most people think that cats are evil, and I really don't get your issue there. But it's a pretty natural choice if you're looking for something that exterminates mice. I don't think it's going on anything but that.

No, I think that people should go on something that challenges their current worldview rather than affirming it.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

I suppose you could choose owls instead. They kill a lot of mice. But I don't really think that's any better, except that it's a little less what owls get stereotyped as in Western cultures, I guess.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

I'm really just not concerned about animal stereotypes, except insofar as "cute and fuzzy" animals get treated better (or sometimes bought and then dumped later on when people can't take care of them in greater numbers) than others, which is stupid.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't have any proof that animal stereotypes cause people to kill animals. Like I said, not harmful or evil necessarily, just something that makes the eight-year-old girl inside me cry.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

I think that would be better. I mean, owls are usually read as wise.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

Yes, the wise Nazis. That would be lol (people's reactions would, at least). Cats are usually supposed to be smart too. Haha.

I am beyond the point of taking this seriously, sorry, as I don't care about animal representations except insofar as they lead to problems in how we treat animals, which, currently, has more to do with people being like "Awww a cute kitten" and then letting it destroy the ecosystem or have tons of babies they can't take care of or abandoning it.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

I agree, that would be lol! And cats are cunning, see, or clever. Evil can also be cunning and clever, but never wise.

No, I'm not taking it seriously either. I mean, I care more, but animal representations of this kind don't usually result in actual damage. I mean, some do. Like prioritizing one animal (pandas?) over others (other endangered animals). Or like, trying to get endangered species protection for an animal that most people think is a pest or whatever.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

I know. But we don't really 'like' predators, generally speaking, and the predators we do 'like' we ignore the predatory aspects of. (I'm using 'like' here as something more like "have positive stereotypes of," when I don't think that actually correlates with individual people liking that animal in real-world instances) Seeing owls, lions, dogs, etc. in all their bloodthirsty glory would likely put people off. Maybe even be frightening. I could easily see owls as representing the downfall of intellectual utopianism turned authoritarian killing spree or something.

Yes, but that's the sort of representation I'm concerned with.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

uh, the point of the first part is that we are very pro-victim.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

More seriously, I'm pretty sure you can interpret representing Nazis with anything as insulting, but, you know, the Nazis were humans, too.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Yeah... that's why I feel it's safer to have both Jews and Nazis as the same species, but I know, there are reasons for this.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

Don't give in to the pressure! Nazis are not any more evil than we are!

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Wait, what? I mean, I don't think Nazis are any more evil than we are. Hence "all same species."

Unless I'm not supposed to think this.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Okay, prepare for a lot of emotional irrationality here. Just to warn you.

I want to point out that a lot of things eat mice. Even wolves eat mice. I am pretty positive that dogs eat mice. But yeah, I'm sure he is just starting with hey, they called Jews vermin, so I'll follow that and make cats Nazis. But I feel like given the way people read Nazis (as the ultimate evil incarnate blah blah... something I don't agree with, but something I know people think), making an entire species of animal represent something that weighty... bothers me. I think if he did, you know, the whole thing with various types of birds or lizards or something I wouldn't have this reaction, because nobody thinks, "oh yeah, goddamn sparrows, I fucking hate those bastards, they probably ARE Nazis." But I guess I feel that there are people that would think that about cats. I'm not sure if there is any animal that is as easily coded as evil in Western culture as a cat. Maybe like... a hyena? Yeah, maybe a hyena/jackal type thing. But that's not exactly common. I guess people see snakes as evil too, for Biblical reasons, although it is rare for a snake to come up in pop culture. Unless it's Britney Spears dancing with one.

I mean, they say it semi-jokingly, but I have heard a lot of people say "cats are evil," and there are so many movies where cats are treated like shit that can get chainsawed in half (whereas when a dog dies, it's typically a noble death a la I Am Legend, or something that is meant to really elicit emotion because the Dog Was Such a Good Guy). So that's why I think it's taking a shortcut to "good" and "evil," and why I think it's lazy. Partly because I really do feel that's how cats are coded in Western culture, and hell, if you want to challenge stereotypes, make your Nazis penguins. Nobody thinks penguins are evil. And once again, I do get that he's coming from the starting point of the Jews = vermin thing. But I fear that the end result is yet another example of cats being evil bastards that should be drowned.

This is a pretty crazy reaction on my part, I know. But I once wrote a story dedicated to the cats that were burned with the witches in Salem (and as I recall I wanted the Church to like... apologize for killing cats?). So... yeah.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

Dude, most people love cats. They're all cute and fuzzy and shit. Now, snakes--there is an animal that gets a lot of shit. And eats mice, for that matter. Probably better to make the Nazis cats than mice, though, b/c at least cats have the possibility of being good. Snakes are just like, pure evil.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

oops, I meant "cats than snakes," haha.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

And if you don't think cats have the possibility of being good, I'm pretty sure I can come up with a bunch of examples of positive portrayals of cats, but I really don't want to do something that pointless, so please don't make me.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

LOL, that's okay. I know that there are positive portrayals (like the Aristocats!), but I still think it's overall a more negative portrayal than a positive one - especially within the Tom and Jerry motif. You get cats on their own (like in "Cats") and there's a better chance of a positive portrayal. But as soon as other animals enter the picture, the chance that the cat winds up as the antagonist skyrockets.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

Oh god. Who cares?

(btw, I hate Tom & Jerry, but it's nothing to do with cats. It's just that it makes me uncomfortable, like most American comedies.)

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Man, I really really disagree with you on the "most people love cats" thing, but maybe it's just the people that hate them that really make their opinions known, and the silent majority doesn't think they're evil.

Yeah, you're probably right - better cats than snakes. I still say better, like, eagles than cats. Because everybody loves eagles and they eat mice. I think.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

People devote whole stores to how much they love cats. With cats in them. People make movies like The Aristocats and The Lion King. People post thousands of pictures of cute kittens. People make lolcats. There are cat posters, cat figurines, cat supplies and luxuries, cat hotels for chrissake (and if that isn't exorbitant ridiculousness, I don't know what is). I don't really know much about Cats, but I don't think they were all villains there. There are crazy cat ladies. I'm pretty sure there are as many cat supporters as dog supporters, they just have like this bitter feud that I don't get. I like cats and dogs. I'm more used to cats than dogs, but I recognize that it's not really based on anything but that.

[intertribal.livejournal.com]

Oh, see, I would draw the line (first I wrote "draw the lion") at Lion King. Lions are a whole different issue. Lions are noble. Richard III and libraries and all. Aristocats, though, yes. And although LOLcats are often not very funny and sort of eye-roll-y, I do think they have been good for cat-human relationships. Uh... or something. But I do think there's a difference between "hey, cat owners exist and love cats" and "wow, cats get killed a lot in movies." Cuz of course there are cat owners who love cats (and might I add, "cat lady" usually implies crazy spinster? there are no "crazy dog ladies"). In movies, if you've got cats vs. dogs, dogs are usually the good guys, because they're like the good macho animal.

But yes, a nice thing about some Disney movies (like Aristocats and... Oliver? Was that a Disney movie?) is that they have them all working together against a horrible human entity.

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

Also, while I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why this is an invalid statistic (I can think of a few), fwiw: "bad OR evil cats" gets 30,500,000 google results, and "good cats" gets 70,000,000. I think half of them are lolcats either way. :P

[royinpink.livejournal.com]

Also, at least with Martel's interviews, you're actually reacting to what Martel himself has said about (even better) why he chose to represent Jews as he did. It's probably a safe bet that you're not going to get that much more out of...whatever he created. If you were just going on the representation as monkeys or donkeys, that would be different. I, for one, would be like "What the fuck? Monkeys?"