a sense of joy and then a panic

That actually reminds me that there is a song called "The Devil You Know (God Is A Man)" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRbBYVR69X8). I only know it from Buffy.

The thing is, it's a very tricky thing to even interact with b/c of the very nature of the problem.

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I do love this video and absolutely admire how it's getting across what it's trying to get across (which is certainly part of why I love the end credits of Jennifer's Body so much), but I'm still not sure about the contextual dismissal of the entire show assumed to be implicit in this and similar criticisms. Part of my whole "you can't throw away the entire source-material just because you dislike a part of it" thing, I suppose, even if the part in question happens to be less an unsightly cyst which could be removed without damaging the whole than a thread that runs through everything and can't be pulled out without making the entire story unravel.

Sexualization of female fear and death is part of "mainstream" horror iconography--we all know this. Questioning it is worthwhile. Widening the scope is worthwhile (why not do the same to dudes?), as is narrowing it (why sexualize any fear and death, when in RL both fear and death are very unsexy things?). And yet...

And yet: I still like Supernatural, so I guess I'm complicit, and I should just accept it. Yeah. That's probably the best way to go (aside from worth on those sequels to "Crossing the River").

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"Working on", obviously. Jesus.

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It's a striking video, isn't it? I don't see it so much as a dismissal of Supernatural (although some people do; the creators are "fans who question") as much as a very direct example of how all this stuff can add up. I would certainly be interested in seeing a vid of all the male deaths/demons as a point of contrast.

One of the things that the creators said, actually, was that you could use many TV shows as the source and achieve something similar. And I think what's problematic is the jump to "depiction of women dying is bad!" I don't think that jump is necessary. But it did get me thinking about things I've written or plan to write, and whether distribution of depiction of suffering is fair across the genders, all things considered. 1) And there are a lot of things to consider. 2) And the creator's self-awareness, I think, is huge.

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Somebody did an amazing Criminal Minds vid which was about not so much women as victims but women as survivors, horrifically scarred but unbroken. That was pretty neat, since CM can certainly be accused of falling into the same loaded gender paradigm. Can't recall who, 'cause my mind is cheese, but there can't be that many.

As for male deaths on Supernatural, you'd probably almost immediately run into the parallel problem of POC getting killed...though I guess that's a whole 'nother issue.

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you'd probably almost immediately run into the parallel problem of POC getting killed

Oh dear.

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Yeah...again, I got nothin', because it's not really debatable. Just another annoying undercurrent to a show I happen to like, though I understand why it would really alienate other people.

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It happens. I'm like that with Heart of Darkness.

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Me too!

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lol matching icons

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LOL it's true! Hands over eyes, women!!

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with the addition of your icon we just need someone with their hands over their ears!

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haha yeah, perfect.

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Whoa! Awesome song!

I have to confess that threat and violence--IN STORIES--can be pretty much of a turn-on for me, depending on the story. And I haven't analyzed myself enough to know what details of the story make it a turn-on and what ones make it a turn-off.

So: I know it's bad that it's always done to women, etc. But I guess I'm just humbly stating the obvious and saying that there are plenty of complicit women viewers/readers. LIke myself, in some instances. Certainly doesn't mean it's all that I want in my entertainment, or even most of what I want in my entertainment, just saying that a little of that, I don't mind. But clearly people's mileage varies WILDLY. And it's certainly the root of a lot of problems.

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Man, if you are not familiar with Hole, you need to familiarize yourself, ASAP. I recommend "Jennifer's Body" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0sbjPvin0U) and "Reasons to be Beautiful," which I unfortunately can't find a decent youtube video for. Okay, I also really like "Drag" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnF7_nje2mw), which is sort of different. Half the reason I love the video is the use of the song. I'm a Hole feminist, lol.

Oh, I totally agree. If there's no sense of physical danger I very, very often cannot get into a story at all. There is a certain kind of story that's a turn-off - the first person serial killer story that lovingly describes the deaths (I've never read this done well, only creepy and amateur. sometimes in 2nd person, as in, "you try to scream but...").

And what's interesting is that Supernatural has a huge female following. The depiction of violence against women is not a dealbreaker (that would be ridiculous), but when it becomes a theme, I definitely want to see that the creator is aware of what they're doing, and why. I do think that the whole "women's deaths filmed differently versus men's deaths" issue is interesting, and more of a problem. One of the things that one of the vid's creators said was something akin to "Daddy just falls down dead but Mommy burns on the ceiling."

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Daddy just falls down dead but Mommy burns on the ceiling."

LOL. "So like a woman! No restraint! Always making a scene!" :-P

I've never actually seen Supernatural. And YES, I hate first-person serial killer stories.

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An exception to the terrible first-person serial killer story is "Black River Killer" by Blitzen Trapper (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7zyfArxibk), which is fucking sublime.

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