intertribal: (the only one who could ever reach me)
intertribal ([personal profile] intertribal) wrote2009-01-30 10:06 am

that's a tomato... no wait, that's a fetus.

Title from the ever brilliant KSK.  Talk about my only light in dark times.

From the NYTimes (Oscar-Nominated Films Deliver Triumphant Tales for Dark Days): "And the best-film nominees this year — give or take “The Reader,” which has the Holocaust as a central concern — reflect an appetite on the part of the Academy, and by proxy, the public, for a nice, big chunk of uplift...  Consumers who are motivated by the laurels heaped on these films to plunk down increasingly scarce disposable income will leave the movie house with the message that circumstance is just that, and no match for the indomitability of human will. The films are built on individual successes — kids from the slums who better themselves, a television celebrity who finds his inner newsman, a newborn who overcomes old age and the midlife closeted man who steps into the light — that accrue to the greater good. That message, that darkness can be overcome by individuals working for the common good, is not so distant from the current collective impulse."

Why did How Green Is My Valley beat out the "vastly superior" Citizen Kane for Best Picture in 1941?  Why, could it be because How Green Is My Valley had a more uplifting message about family togetherness?


I assign the entire Oscar committee to watch Hot Fuzz, and meanwhile I guess I'm rooting for The Reader, even though I've never seen it.  Ha ha ha.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 03:52 am (UTC)(link)
Apparently Osama bin Laden is against our dearest held values and way of life because he is the Puritan bigot. This is what I learned in Political Philosophy today. We had to read Schmitt. That probably seems way off topic, but it was my immediate reaction to hearing about "the current collective impulse."

That and it reminded me of what DFW said about entertainment in modern America. "And it is this, I think, that makes Kafka's wit inaccessible to children whom our culture has trained to see jokes as entertainment and entertainment as reassurance."

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 04:03 am (UTC)(link)
Your first sentence: wait, what?

Heh, yeah, I like the quote. That dude was great.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:10 am (UTC)(link)
lol. He was talking about how to define public enemies and public friends (the people who felt proud to be an American when Obama was elected, apparently), and so considering Osama from the point of view of what part of our 'american way of life' he threatens. And talking about people who really felt threatened by him, wanted to go home on 9/11 and protect their children in Portland, OR or whatever. He...likes to talk. Also said that according to Schmitt's categorization of different spheres (political, economic, aesthetic...), American democracy operates according to business ("bargains and leniency"), not politics. At first I didn't like him (seems kinda self-obsessed), but he's growing on me. He's a good conference leader, I think, which I wouldn't have necessarily expected from someone who Reed definitely wants to keep because he's published stuff people care about. Like, he doesn't have to try so hard to be a good teacher, but he does.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:21 am (UTC)(link)
So it's Osama's... puritanism that threatens us?

Yeah, American foreign policy used to be all about business. One of America's founding principles was "anti-politics".

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:24 am (UTC)(link)
I am so the wrong person to be asking, as I have never felt the slightest bit threatened by Osama. But I think that's what he was saying, that it's always been that sort of puritanism that was anti-American, and we ge tthe same vibe from Osama. He also said, "Osama hates the Saudis more than he hates Americans, and the Shiites more than he hates the Jews. Really, he wants to kill me more than he wants to kill y'all."

hm, the things they don't teach you in Citizenship Issues.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:33 am (UTC)(link)
There's a puritanism that's anti-American? I think that's what confuses me.

Well, they do sort of teach you in CI to be anti-politics, in a very, very subtle way, in my opinion. And you can tell just reading letters to the editor too... the most common insult in domestic politics fights is always that the hated candidate is too mired in Washington politics... etc. etc.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:45 am (UTC)(link)
It's not that it's overtly anti-American, it's that puritanism (or maybe just puritan bigots?) inherently threatens our secular democracy or something. I think he said something more concrete about this, but I totally forgot because this class is at fucking nine in the morning, and i am generally only half-conscious.

Maybe it has something to do with "Another important distinction was the Puritan approach to church-state relations. They opposed the Anglican idea of the supremacy of the monarch in the church (Erastianism), and, following Calvin, they argued that the only head of the Church in heaven or earth is Christ (not the Pope or the monarch). However, they believed that secular governors are accountable to God (not through the church, but alongside it) to protect and reward virtue, including "true religion", and to punish wrongdoers — a policy that is best described as non-interference rather than separation of church and state," but then again, "Alexis de Tocqueville suggested in Democracy in America that the Pilgrims' Puritanism was the very thing that provided a firm foundation for American democracy, and in his view, these Puritans were hard-working, egalitarian, and studious."

*shrug*

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:51 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm... I don't really think anti-puritanism is a part of American life at all, but I guess perhaps I disagree with your prof? I think Osama is a public enemy because he's Muslim, swarthy, and lives in a cave.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:52 am (UTC)(link)
But I think the Muslim part is exactly the same as the part he's calling 'puritan bigot'

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:56 am (UTC)(link)
also, i'm fairly certain he doesn't actually agree with the whole public and private enemies bit. he's just coming up with something that's american that osama threatens by being an islamic extremist.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:02 am (UTC)(link)
but it's not the tenacity of his religious belief (if that's what puritan entails here, not the actual Puritan religion) that scares us, it's ethnic.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:05 am (UTC)(link)
Maybe he likes to believe the people he knows who were scared of Osama aren't as terrified by him, seeing as he's Iranian.

I don't know.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:13 am (UTC)(link)
"Well, that was a very self-serving justification you just made, Jack, and you know it."

(not directed at you, but the professor)

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:26 am (UTC)(link)
haha. he does seem like the sort of prof who makes wild assertions to stimulate discussion, though, so i don't know how seriously to take his offhand comments.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:50 am (UTC)(link)
i dunno why i feel the need to defend him, maybe he really thinks america is secular, i just don't know.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
and i mean, if you think that america is actually a Christian country, then you're disagreeing with him. but he's not saying it's an anti-puritan country, but rather a secular one.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:03 am (UTC)(link)
I definitely don't think it's secular, so I guess I am disagreeing with him. :)

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:07 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know wtf America is. I feel like we're divided precisely along those lines (secular or Christian), and those lines do have something to say about whether we were threatened by Osama or not, so he isn't really the public enemy of all Americans except insofar as they go along with the leaders of the state, or whatever.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:19 am (UTC)(link)
I guess I'm not sure the secular part is cohesive/defined enough to really count as anything. I'm not sure I would call American Christian per se, but I would definitely call it religious, maybe even "organized religious". I would call it Churchy, but maybe not Christian.

But yeah, I don't think Osama is the public enemy of every individual American. You could probably make a wider claim that he is a public enemy to everyone if you base your argument on "justice", though.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:24 am (UTC)(link)
hm...I wonder how that stands in relation to his idea of puritanical bigots. but yeah, america is a very sorta 'sunday christian' country, culturally speaking. if that makes sense.

but you can't base public enemies on justice. they don't threaten your way of life... ahaha.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:28 am (UTC)(link)
I just don't think that religious extremism is something that scares generic America. To some extent cults do, but those are associated with radical politics, weird sex, beards, suicide, Latin America, UFOs, and other things that are not in the American way of life. I don't think it's actual religious extremism that scares us at all.

ooh, but justice is part of our way of life...

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:33 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm. Mormons do, though, lol. I don't know what scares generic America.

I guess, but...yeah, that's why these distinctions don't quite make sense to me.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:34 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, but Mormons have weird sex. Seriously, without that, I think they would have had a much smoother history in the U.S. And they did say some very anti-mainstream-church things... which is an affront against Christianity, not secularism.



[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:39 am (UTC)(link)
lol. Sexual mores determine friends and enemies!

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:44 am (UTC)(link)
sigh. people are silly.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:08 am (UTC)(link)
but then, i didn't really read Schmitt because i was bleeding and in pain. omg this month was horrible. i had a migraine for two days...

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:09 am (UTC)(link)
for some reason we're reading schmitt in the middle of aristotle, too. it's like: aristotle, aristotle, schmitt, aristotle, aristotle, aristotle, hobbes.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:13 am (UTC)(link)
at least you're not reading Plato. But Aristotle was my third-least-favorite political theory dude, after Plato and Burke. Ha ha ha, Burke.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:20 am (UTC)(link)
I hate Plato too. I sorta like Aristotle, but I dunno about his politics...

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:23 am (UTC)(link)
All I've read by Aristotle is "Politics". It wasn't awful... but like, I don't remember any of it, at all, and that doesn't strike me as a good thing considering how much time we spent on him.

Well, I guess I'm ok with the Aristotlian tragedy, or whatever.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:28 am (UTC)(link)
i'll get back to you on "Politics" when we've finished it. I just like Aristotle 'cause he's prolific, way better than Plato, the predecessor to the scholastics and sign theory, and an empiricist.

i think we don't read Plato 'cause we're also supposed to have read The Republic in Hum 110 (even though I don't remember much of it).

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:31 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, well, I wouldn't know much about that other stuff Aristotle did. I agree that he is way better than Plato, though, and that empiricism helps.

The Republic... ew. That's all I have to say. But I've had a strong dislike of Plato since AP Lang. You know who did like Plato? Anika.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:37 am (UTC)(link)
I just remember hating what I read of the Republic, and especially that even though I disagreed, I had a hard time arguing against it. We read Plato in AP Lang? Hm, I do remember the socratic dialogue bit... Haha, oh, Anika.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:42 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, Plato's tricksy that way. I'm pretty sure we first read about The Goddamned Cave in AP Lang. Anika was obsessed with the idea that this table was not the Real table, that there was a Real table somewhere... out there. With Jesus, probably.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:44 am (UTC)(link)
LOL. Ah, yeah, the Cave, I remember now.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:47 am (UTC)(link)
Why do you think they teach you to be anti-politics in CI? And is this politics in the same sense of 'based on an irreducible contrast btwn. friend and enemy'?

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:59 am (UTC)(link)
Because politics is seen as dirty, prone to corruption, involving big money and big cities and not red-blooded America. Because we hold politicians to ridiculous standards. I'm not sure how much of this is necessarily in CI textbooks, but I feel like it comes off in the actual teachings of CI classes.

We're supposed to resolve our differences peacefully and with logic and reason, as rational beings, not through smear campaigns, etc. That's not the definition of politics I'm using though. I guess politics in the sense of... uh... compromising and wheeling-and-dealing in governmental decision-making.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:04 am (UTC)(link)
Hm, that sounds like something Democrats and Republicans actually agree on. At least, in popular opinion. I don't really remember CI except having current events quizzes, but then, i took it at the zoo. I actually remember Amer. Govt. better, because it was more full of Republicans who thought we should punish people who burned flags and erect monuments to the ten commandments and save the unborn.

I guess politics in the sense of... uh... compromising and wheeling-and-dealing in governmental decision-making.

But that's what he was saying was business and not politics. According to Schmitt. He took the phrase "bargaining and leniency" from Scalia.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:10 am (UTC)(link)
Oh yeah, they definitely do agree on that.

Well, I think business is seen as honorable. Whenever there's compensation, it's fair. Like, that's how we justified conquering all of Mexico and shit, was that we "paid them". Whereas politics is skeezy and involves moral compromises, the kind that might doom you to eternal hellfire (deal with the devil, as opposed to deal with the guy down the street for spare parts)... not monetary compensation.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:20 am (UTC)(link)
Hm...I dunno, business is just profitable. When honor starts coming into it, it seems like that's where you mix morality or justice with business, then you separate it into 'good business' and 'bad business', and get the different sorts of compromises you're talking about. Maybe.

[identity profile] intertribal.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 06:21 am (UTC)(link)
Hey, you know I'm a pinko, I don't think business is honorable. But I think a lot of people do see business as honorable. I always thought that was very Protestant. Although, there's always the possibility of bad business, I mean, there's bad everything.

[identity profile] royinpink.livejournal.com 2009-01-31 05:26 am (UTC)(link)
(i'm not sure he'd defend the whole puritanism thing, that he wasn't just making a point to help us understand what 'public enemies' were based on)